Titles! When to sweat the small stuff with Stephanie Feger

Book titles. Who hasn't spent hours... days! months! working on just the right book title? What's the purpose of your book title? Why does it matter? What if someone else has published a book with the same or similar title? That's what we're talking about today... with guest Stephanie Feger of emPowerPR, where she helps nonfiction authors with marketing. 

Transcript

Introduction (Various voices) 00:05

Welcome to the Empowered Author podcast.

Discussion, tips, insights and advice from those who’ve been there, done that, helping you write, publish and market your nonfiction book.

Being an author is something that you’ve got to take seriously. 

I’m proud I’ve written a book.

What does the reader need, first? What does the reader need, second?

What happens if you start writing your book before you identify your “why”? What’s the problem with that?

You’re an indie author, you take the risk; you reap the rewards:, you are in charge of the decisions. You’re the head of that business. 

Every emotion you’re feeling when you’re writing is felt by every other writer.

The Empowered Author podcast. Your podcast hosts are Boni and John Wagner-Stafford of Ingenium Books.

Boni Wagner-Stafford 00:57

Today, we are going to talk about book titles. It won’t be very long, even if you’re just starting to write your book or even think about writing your book before you’re going to start to think about what the heck you’re going to call this thing. And to talk about book titles today, I am super happy to be joined by Stephanie Feger, who is from emPower PR Marketing Group. And titles, really, like, where do we begin? Let me begin by saying welcome.

Stephanie Feger 01:28

Thank you. So glad to be here.

Boni Wagner-Stafford 01:31

Yeah, thank you. So book title: what is the role of a book title? And why is it important? Let’s start there.

Stephanie Feger 01:40

Yeah, so I have written a book myself. I have to share this, Boni, because my book title is a weird one. And I actually had a book coach tell me at one point, “Stephanie, maybe you should change your book title. People aren’t going to understand what those three words together mean.” And I just felt like I couldn’t – maybe was the marketer in me. And I realized that the book title really gives people – has the potential to give people a glimpse. It can actually help with search engine optimization later. But I don’t know if you should make that as your final decision maker on the book titles specifically because sometimes the most obscure our book titles could be the most interesting and they kind of pull people in, going, “What? What is that? I want to know a little bit more.” So I think a book title should, in my opinion, should really speak to you; it should speak to what you want to do. But you should never forget that there’s kind of two reasons to write a book. One is because you want to write a book. And the other is because you want someone to read the book. And that person who you want to read the book, you want to ensure that your book title, matched with the cover – I think those go nice and hand in hand – and your subtitle kind of have a beautiful marriage: that they are very interconnected to reach your target audience in a way that that piques their interest.

Boni Wagner-Stafford 02:59

So, is a book title a marketing exercise?

Stephanie Feger 03:07

Oh, absolutely. I absolutely think having a book title and thinking through it, what it does is it requires you to take a step back after you’ve written the book or in the beginning – I’ve seen people who knew the title before they’ve written the whole manuscript and those at the end that need to kind of work through it – but what I have found is it allows you to take a step back and say what is the most important key component, key takeaway, key nugget of knowledge that someone will want to know when they read this book. And or what is the key – kind of distilling the key word, key phrases – that you’re going to find within the book, right? So for instance, my book title “Color Today Pretty”: as a standalone, people are like, “What is that? Is it a coloring book?” No, it’s not. It is actually a mindset, a way to live. But the subtitle provides that clarity. So for some people – like for instance, I’m reading a fabulous book right now, Boni, called, “They Ask You Answer”. I’m not sure if you’ve read it but it is amazing and everyone needs to read it. Have you read it?

Boni Wagner-Stafford 04:11

Awesome. No, I haven’t. I’m writing it down

Stephanie Feger 04:14

(Crosstalk) to the list. So, “They Ask You Answer”: that’s a very – that’s the, if you were to distill the entire book down, the whole concept: it’s a marketing book on when people ask questions, you should be answering them. Very simple, right. But the subtitle provides the context: it lets you know it’s about customer relationship, inbound marketing, whatever. Those types of things help when people are searching. So I think a book title is as much about aligning with your key differentiator, right? “They Ask You Answers” is Marcus’s kind of framework for his approach. “Color Today Pretty” is my framework for how I look at life. That can be kind of unique, right? But if it doesn’t speak to who you are trying to pull in, then you could be missing an opportunity. So I’m going to tell a story – this story – real quick. And if I get it wrong, I’m not – I’ve never been the best storyteller, Boni, but I’ve got a lovely … It’s important to share this. So there is an author …

Boni Wagner-Stafford 05:11

An author and a marketing person who’s not a good storyteller? I don’t think that’s possible.

Stephanie Feger 05:15

You’re right. Well, maybe I should, maybe I should share: I’m not a good joke teller. I could tell a story, not a joke. 

Boni Wagner-Stafford 05:23

There you go. 

Stephanie Feger 05:24

Yeah. But I had the opportunity to do a deep dive with an author in their home. He was helping a friend of mine kind of with her business. So his book was about – a business-related book. His first book that he wrote was like a best seller: great things happened to it. And I know, you’re going to ask me the name of this author. And that’s – I don’t have my bookshelf behind me so I’m thinking of his name as we’re talking. But the second book that he wrote, he wrote a book that was called “Procrastinate on Purpose”. And that title was a very interesting title. And he found that that book wasn’t getting the types of sales that he was hoping that it would get. And then he did a TED Talk and used the same elements of “Procrastinate on Purpose” but he called it “How to Maximize your Time” or “How to Double your Time” or something like that. His TED Talk exploded. And that was proof, if you ask me, that your title does matter. You want to think about what is it that the person that’s going to be reading your book is going to care about: they don’t want to procrastinate. So the topic of procrastination brought like lots of icky feelings, right? But maximizing and doubling your time? Everyone’s looking for that. So I – from a marketing standpoint, it’s really important to be thinking about what are those pain points that your reader has? How is your book a solution to that? And how do you speak to that in a way that is going to push them to not just invest in buying your book but invest in the time that it takes to read it? I think as authors, we forget that sometimes, right? Like we’re trying to sell a book but you’re also trying to sell someone – you know, sell time that someone’s going to invest in it too.

Boni Wagner-Stafford 07:05

That is it such a good point for nonfiction especially. And we didn’t clarify at the beginning of our conversation, whether there is a difference between a fiction title and a nonfiction title. And so let’s go there in a moment. But for nonfiction in particular, especially if it is anything – you know, memoir, maybe there’s a little bit of room to go down a different route with this – but I think painting the solution with your title rather than painting the problem is, I’m not sure you’ll ever really go wrong with that.

Stephanie Feger 07:41

I agree. And I think that’s true. When you think of, you know, with sales, content, marketing content, email content, on your website, anything: you think about it, the problem is what’s going to draw someone in, right? Like so that example with that author: like, of course, people are struggling managing their time. They have time management issues: maybe they procrastinate. But they are going and searching ways to not procrastinate. They’re searching, “How do I make more time?” Because they might not even know that that’s a pain point of theirs. They just know they’re looking for this particular solution. So you’re right. I think in a nonfiction book, specifically, you want to be thinking about what are – why did you write this book in the first place? It’s not to just highlight all the problems. It’s because you are creating a solution for somebody in whatever genre or space you’re going down. And I think your book title and subtitle should speak to that. Absolutely. And I think you should be thinking as to that marriage with the cover. Gosh, Boni, your team does phenomenal book covers and that right there: when people say, “Don’t judge a book by its cover,” people do judge a book by its cover and you need to make sure that that cover really speaks to it as well. Absolutely.

Boni Wagner-Stafford 08:53

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Boni Wagner-Stafford 09:27

So a couple of other things before we go to the nonfiction side – and maybe talking about memoir might be a way to bridge that: which is, so in a memoir book, it’s not really a self-help or business book or educational book. And memoir I see kind of as straddling a line, of some sorts, between nonfiction and fiction. You’re delivering a fiction experience through the creation of story but it’s still a true story. So I feel like on one hand, memoir can be easy. And on the other hand, it’s really difficult because of that straddling. But titling of a memoir, it’s not so solution oriented as the other types of nonfiction. But we do still want to ensure that the right reader is being attracted and that the title is giving a good idea what kind of book it is. Talk to me about that a little bit. 

Stephanie Feger 10:35

Yeah, I am – I got the pleasure of working with an amazing local author. Her name is Amy Smith. And she wrote the book, “My Faith Sparkles”. And if you didn’t know really what that meant, you would think maybe this is a memoir about her personal faith journey. And believe me, there was levels of that built within it. But she’s actually a breast cancer survivor and the story was about how she found her faith and deepened her faith through her cancer diagnosis. Truly a beautiful book. I love that she added a subtitle there: gave that context. But I don’t feel like she needed to say in the title, “A breast cancer survivor believes that my faith sparkles.” No, “My Faith Sparkles” in and of itself was beautiful, piqued interest but it also let someone know, if you are an atheist or agnostic, this book might not be for you, right? Like that’s okay. And it helped to sift through it. But it also matched with the book cover: it made someone pause and go, “Well, that’s really interesting.” On the flip side, I’ve never been diagnosed with cancer myself – I have a lot of family who have – but I wanted to read the book because the title intrigued me. So what was beautiful about that is, it didn’t limit her to only speak to people who have personally been touched by breast cancer. Instead, it allowed to kind of distill what is something that happened within that journey of hers that can connect everybody, right? I feel like that way, you know, “Color Today Pretty” – I’ll use my book as an example: you know, my memoir. It’s a memoiresque book. I love how you painted what a memoir is and how it straddles: you were 100% accurate, beautiful that you shared that. But I feel like the essence of “Color Today Pretty” is something anybody can use; anybody could find valuable. But if you read it, I talk a lot about my kids; I talk a lot about child loss or, you know, some other deep struggles I’ve dealt with in my times thus far on this beautiful planet. And you – but I don’t open up saying, “A mother’s journey through finding color today pretty”, right? Because I’ve actually found that the book has legs in the corporate world. It’s – you know, I’ve created a companion workbook that opens doors to women’s groups. So I love how a memoir, you can do a little bit something more abstract to pique interest, to kind of distill the cornerstone of what the book is about. But you don’t have to give it all away because people – you’re right: people are reading it because they want to be transformed into your experience and look at things through the lens of your perspective.

Boni Wagner-Stafford 13:17

Yeah. So should your title be unique?

Stephanie Feger 13:25

That’s a great question. I love that. It’s a great question. I would say your title doesn’t have to be unique but you have to have a differentiator from a marketing perspective. That’s my two cents. There ...

Boni Wagner-Stafford 13:39

Yeah. And I’m feeding into this because there – I’m just going to pause you there – because I have to tell the story of how you and I connected. I have to tell the story. And it’s actually how this podcast came to be: this podcast with the two of us talking about titles came to be. Which is that – so we’ve, you know, at the time of this recording of the Empowered Author podcast, we’ve – I don’t know; I don’t know how many episodes we’ve got. We’ve been going, I don’t know, a year: something like that. I don’t know. But so I was – a couple of months ago, I was doing a search, thinking, “Okay, well, you know, is my podcast showing up in any searches?” So I’m doing putting in some search keys. And oh, my goodness, there was another podcast called the Empowered Author podcast and it’s Stephanie Feger’s podcast. So I reached out to Stephanie: I’m like, “Hey, we have a podcast with exactly the same name. Of course, there’s a different subtitle and you have your picture on your graphic and I don’t,” and we started this conversation. And it’s led to this fantastic and fruitful – you know, we are people who have come up with the same title for a podcast, which suggests we have some similar approaches. And we did have the conversation about, “Gee, does one of us need to change it?” It’s like, “No. We have a differentiator.” We have different, you know – ours is about empowering authors with respect to decision making and, you know, empowering authors to choose whatever route to publishing might work for them. And yours is different. Tell me about yours.

Stephanie Feger 15:19

Yeah, well, that’s what I love too, right? You know, I mean, what everybody brings to the table is the unique differentiator: just like an author, right? Now, you can write about a very similar thing. Okay, we could even do an exercise, Boni, the two of us: give us like something to write about in the same name. And I bet you the content’s different because we come to it differently. So I come from a background in marketing, public relations, communications, where I worked in nonprofit and agency world and all that fun jazz for 15 plus years. And then – call it inspired writing; call it the universe; call it God; call it whatever you want – I felt the need to write a book and it came to life. And that book changed everything. It made me realize that what I’ve been doing up until this point, was meant to position myself with the knowledge and skill set I needed to empower all of these authors – typically nonfiction authors – with messages and impact and direction and strategy on how to reach the people that need their books, want their books and will buy their books. And I didn’t realize that that was such a needed part in this industry, in this space. But I’ve learned now over the several years emPower PR Group’s been around because authors typically … I had one the other day, Boni: she said, “Stephanie, I would write and write and write all day. But if you make me market, I’d rather clean the toilet.” And it’s like, oh, my gosh, okay. I didn’t realize there was such a strong feeling about that. And there is. Absolutely. So the Empowered Author podcast that that I’ve started is really meant to provide authors with marketing insights, so that they feel like, “Maybe I don’t have to go and do all the things. What’s the right thing I need to do? What’s the right next step? Maybe I’ve explored the need to do something but I don’t really know how that works in the author space.” Or, “I don’t even know that as an author, when I wrote a book, I actually kind of started a business and didn’t mean to and now what?” So I’ve been kind of collecting from my experience with the authors that I’ve had the chance to work with: what are those questions and things from a marketing lens that maybe, you know, 30 minutes here, 30 minutes there could open their eyes and make them feel empowered? That there’s no curtain or anything behind closed doors. And I will say I do realize this: that the marketing industry can be elusive and confusing. And if you aren’t in it, you don’t understand it. And really, that’s the essence of what my podcast is about. Let’s simplify things that could become overcomplicated. And let’s figure out is that something you can do on your own? Is that something you need help with? And if you do need help with, now you know what you need help with. Because you didn’t know before, because of all of the things.

Boni Wagner-Stafford 18:08

Yeah, exactly. So the point of that story is that you don’t necessarily have to sweat it if you have the perfect book title for you, your book, your brand and you see another book out there that has the same or a very similar title. However, I would say that you do want to think more carefully about that if you see another book, in the same genre and in the same categories and that you might want to think twice about that. Let’s pick that apart for a minute.

Stephanie Feger 18:47

I agree. I agree. I mean, you know, there’s two kinds of schools of camp here. One would be if there’s already some conversation out there around this particular topic, then it could be good on a marketing standpoint, in the sense that someone goes, “Okay, well.” They’re already searching something, then that would make sense. However, you don’t want to capitalize on someone else’s growth. That is just poor business. That is not, you know – and that’s not good in the book world because then on the flip side, what could happen is someone might be looking for your book and ends up buying somebody else’s: you don’t want that either. So I would say you definitely, if it’s in the same space, I would definitely have – give it some thought, take a step back and take off this feeling of this is your baby and pull together maybe your editorial team or your publisher or your book coach and have a chat and say, “This title really means something to me. However, I’m too close to this. Let’s talk about this. And I would like your perspective,” and then kind of play off of one another because the likelihood is that you might be able to distill an even better title it even stronger, that’s going to make an even larger impact. And not even be in that problem. Or you might walk away and say, “No, that title really is what it needs to be. But it’s critical that the subtitle is a differentiator and our book cover looks different. And the keywords and the metadata we put on Amazon is different.” Like, those are the things you want to kind of keep in mind, in my opinion.

Boni Wagner-Stafford 20:25

Yeah. Yeah, I agree. I agree. 100%. And a quick note that the book titles – and titles in general – are not copyrightable. So you can’t, you know, if you see somebody – you’ve published your book and you’re happily going along and you see that somebody else has recently published a book with the same title and you can’t get all upset because you can’t copyright a title. Sometimes we get those questions. “Yeah, but that was my title.” That’s, you know, it’s all fair game. So fiction titling now – and at Ingenium Books we are deep into nonfiction. So – and I know you work mainly with nonfiction authors, as well. But just to talk about titling of fiction, what would you say are – are there differences in how an author should think about a title with respect to a fiction book? And there are lots of fiction genres and sub genres. So many of those issues, I would imagine, still apply. But let’s talk about fiction titles for a moment. 

Stephanie Feger 21:36

Yeah. And my – you know, my business might be very laser focused at nonfiction. But let me tell you, I love a good fiction book and I love being transported in them. And what I think about when I look in the nonfiction space, both as a reader and as a marketer, what I find is that you’ve got a little bit more flexibility, I think, there: if someone is going to take a dive in the fiction space, I do think so. I think you have more flexibility in the title. Because I don’t think people are going to look at the title and run from it or look at the title and question it as much. Now different genres, possibly within fiction, I think, or you know, more from a marketing standpoint, the cover design is probably pivotal to know who your target audience is on the fiction space and make sure that that cover is speaking to it. So if you’re doing young adult fiction versus historical fiction, those covers would look and feel very differently. But I also think fiction, quite frankly, is harder to market. And the reason being is most people look at fiction as a, “I’m going to go on the beach and I need something good to read.” And that is wonderful except there’s not usually this impetus to push yourself to go buy it now, right? I mean, I have several of my nonfiction authors who have dabbled in the fiction space and have done really well because they’ve applied some of the marketing principles I teach them. But if you come at it as a fiction author without that marketing lens and really push towards like utilizing a launch team or grassroots marketing efforts, your book is – I kind of explain it as your book, you want your book to be not just a want but a need. And many fiction books become a want: “I really want this. I need it for – I want it for Christmas. I want it because I want to take a break from life. I want it. I want it. I want it,” for those reasons. You want people to start looking at your book as a need in their life. So I have found a new love of historical fiction right now. And I now see it as a need in my life because I’m finding that historical fiction transports me – which I need that: I don’t know about you, Boni, but my mind gets all chaotic. I need to be transported at times. 

Boni Wagner-Stafford 23:45

Totally, totally, totally. 

Stephanie Feger 23:47

Totally? It’s definitely with fiction. But what I love about historical fiction is I’m learning in the process: I become a better person because I’ve now read something that teaches me about the past and helps me with the future. I’ll use Jodi Picoult as an example: my favorite author of all times. And every time I read her books, I’m like, I am changed in that experience. So I think that, you know, I look, I also use her as an example. She wrote a book that was called “A Spark of Light”. It’s a fiction book based on some really intense research. I picked it up because I thought the cover was beautiful, Boni. It was all pinks and watercolors and everything. But when I opened the book, it was on a very controversial topic of abortion. And it was a deep, deep, deep, deep, deep fiction book on a topic that I wasn’t sure mentally I was ready to like dive inward on. That – so a couple things I dissect from that: one, she did a great job marketing this book because that topic is one that could be kind of polarizing. But how she – how her cover and her title had nothing to do with that and it piqued my interest as a reader. Secondly, the book was so good, I actually wrote her an email. And I’ve only done this twice in my life to authors. But I wrote her an email and told her, “I’m so glad that I went and I read your book because it changed me and it pushes – your books always push me to think deeper.” So I look at – I use her as an example because “A Spark of Light”, I understand it now but I didn’t understand it when I picked it up and saw what the book was about. And so I think in fiction, sometimes, a title that doesn’t make sense until later is kind of a cool thing too because the reader is starting to try to sift and figure out, “What does that title mean?” So I don’t know: when I think of fiction too from a marketing perspective, I think authors really need to focus on building their author brand around that. So then you have followers that want you, no matter what your book title is about: like the title and all that does just doesn’t dictate as much as it would in the nonfiction space. At least that’s my two cents.

Boni Wagner-Stafford 25:58

Yeah, I would agree with that. And I’m a fiction reader as well in, you know, certain genres. And I will totally use a title as a determining factor as to whether I’m going to pick that book up or not. It’s like, “Hmmm.” And I don’t have to know what it means. It’s just I kind of let my intuition and I kind of like, you know, “Oh, oh, that looks interesting,” or, “That doesn’t look interesting.” Or, you know, whatever it is. And I don’t really think about it; it’s very instinctive. So there’s the emotional component, yeah: the subconscious emotional component. And so that’s the other thing that I think a title, regardless of the genre – so we’ve got, you know, we started talking big picture about titles; we diverged and went down, depending on the genre. And now I want to come back to, I think, the thing that’s common across them all and that is that you want a book title that does elicit an emotional response in the reader. Even for the most driest legal, business: we want to evoke a feeling in the person. Can you talk to me a little bit about that?

Stephanie Feger 27:15

Yeah, I was going to also say you want a title people will remember. Like I mentioned “They Ask You Answer” earlier. Well, of course, now I’m telling everybody about this book because I remember that book and it’s very succinct and it’s just easy for me to roll off my tongue. Yes, I 100% agree. And if you do any research on buying power and how people think, emotions, feelings, memories will push people to take action. Probably over your logical mind, any day. So you want your book title to make someone pause and think about something. You want – and it could go either way, Boni: sometimes a title might make you think, “Oh my gosh. Oh, my gosh, I have to read that because that’s going to open my eyes to something that I don’t know.” Or, “Oh my gosh, this feels so good. And this gives me that warm feeling like I’ve just walked into my house around Christmas and I can smell the cinnamon and the cookies baking,” right? Like it creates something that is so subconscious we don’t know. And I think that’s important to share too. Because some people in the self-publishing space might go, “I can create my own title and my own cover and all these things.” Just because you can doesn’t mean you should. But yes, anybody can probably create something. But if you work with people who are – know this industry inside and out and also know how people think, they get to take and play around with the subconscious and you don’t even know it. Like certain colors create certain feelings. Certain keywords can evoke certain emotions. And all of that plays into the fact that you only have about like a half a millisecond, when someone looks at your book amongst the millions out there, to decide if they’re going to invest in that. So you want to use that millisecond to your benefit and really ensure that this book is going to incur – this title, this cover, the description, all that is going to encompass everything I want. And I’m going to pass it through to you super quick.

Boni Wagner-Stafford 29:25

Perfect. I want to – before we started, I was telling you about an author by the name of Timothy Balding who replied to a Twitter post on our Ingenium @IngeniumBooks Twitter account. And it was a post related to book titles. And he says, “When I saw that a book called ‘Turtles All the Way Down’ became a bestseller, I decided that titles cannot matter in the slightest in sales success.” So – and it’s you know, on one hand, it’s like, okay, there’s exceptions to every rule but that, just because that title, “Turtles All the Way Down”, just because that title seems nonsensical doesn’t mean necessarily that it was nonsensical to the reader.

Stephanie Feger 30:14

Oh, absolutely. And …

Boni Wagner-Stafford 30:16

What do you think? 

Stephanie Feger 30:17

Well, I think that that also is a valid point: that sometimes something catchy pulls people in because they’re interested. So – what is the book? “Who Moved My Cheese?” Is that the book? I think it’s what it’s called. And that book’s like a super easy book to read: great business principles. It’s all around this kind of mouse, cheese concept. But “Who Moved My Cheese?” you would never think would be a business book. And yet it has been like, it just – people keep reading it for generations and generations, years and years. So I think that sometimes some of the most interesting book titles make people want to go in because they’re curious: that piques their curiosity. And that’s also a very – a very beautiful marketing approach. I think it all boils down to a couple things: one, what is your like, what is your author brand personality? Right? So if I were to write a book called “Who Moved My Cheese?”, it might not make sense with me because if you get to know me, my brand has a different vibe. But other authors have … 

Boni Wagner-Stafford 31:23

You don’t eat cheese?

Stephanie Feger 31:24

I don’t eat – well, hey, who moved my hamburger? I don’t eat hamburgers. That would be a good one. 

Boni Wagner-Stafford 31:29

Right, right. Yeah.

Stephanie Feger 31:32

It’s true. You know, it’s true. Or is there an analogy that you use in your life all the time that people know you for and you have a lot of fun connecting the dots? That could be a fun book title as well. But I – but if you are trying to be comical when your book is very serious, listen, your readers, they – and this kind of goes to what I say is the secret sauce to book success is word of mouth: word of mouth marketing. You want your readers, once that – that title is like this brand promise, this book promise: “Something cool is going to be in here. Invest eight hours; sit down and read it.” And when they read it, they – we want them to go, “Oh yeah, yes. I’ve got what I signed up for and more. And now I want to tell people about it.” That is the – that is like the beautiful cyclical pattern. The worst thing that could happen is if you wrote a title that’s catchy just for the catchy’s sake but it doesn’t have a connection. And it leaves people wanting more in a bad way.

Boni Wagner-Stafford 32:33

Yeah, awesome. Such a good chat. I’m going to pause us there because we hit our magical 30-minute mark a couple minutes ago. And then just a quick reminder to you if you’re listening to the podcast, that you can find us and we encourage comments like the one that we had from Timothy Balding. You can find us on Twitter: @IngeniumBooks. Find us on Facebook at Ingenium Books, LinkedIn at Ingenium Books. And of course our website, IngeniumBooks.com. And you can find Stephanie a couple of places: emPowerPRGroup.com: do I have that right?

Stephanie Feger 33:12

You sure do, my friend. And then we have links …

Boni Wagner-Stafford 33:15

And also Stephanie Feger. Yeah, exactly. So this topic has been about book covers and Stephanie, you and I haven’t discussed this yet but you know that we’re coming back at some point in the future to talk about launch teams. I don’t know when that’ll be but we’ll find a spot.

Stephanie Feger 33:36

It’d be great. So good. Yeah, you can’t do a launch team till you have a title, of course. So that’s why we’re talking titles first. Okay, Stephanie. Thank you so much. And thanks for listening. 

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